Interview With Mark Pinsky, Author Of Gospel According To Disney: Faith, Trust, and Pixie Dust

Mark Pinsky is a longtime journalist and author of many books, including The Gospel According to Disney and The Gospel According to the Simpsons. Both books have been well-received by fans of both the Disney movies and shows, as well as of The Simpsons.

In this interview, we discuss some of the themes talked about in the Disney book, along with a brief look at the Simpsons book. One of our questions is whether Disney and the Simpsons have been a positive influence on our society, to which the author responded that they were. He proceeded to explain in detail how they have benefited our culture. Disney has helped many children, and adults as well, to learn about morality, positive values, and how to be a productive and kind member of the larger society.

To start the interview, we asked Mark what he meant by Judeo-Christian values, which is a phrase that was used many times in his book, but it has also been used by pundits and talk show hosts to mean something somewhat different. In a sense, these talk show hosts use this phrase as a weapon with which to bludgeon those they consider to be their opponents, who are mostly non-Christians. However, as Mark explains, this term simply means the best values offered by both Judaism and Christianity, or the Abrahamic religions. It means following the Ten Commandments and the New Testament, and these values tend to express a universal goodness and morality.

These values include hard work, faith in a higher power, and being kind and loving to others. In some instances, it can be called faith in faith – where regardless of actual theology, one has faith in something greater than themselves.

Those who have watched Cinderella 2015 (the live-action version) may remember the phrase Cinderella often repeated to herself, that she learned from her mother: “Have courage and be kind.” This was an unequivocal statement, and everything that she does in the movie stems from this conviction. This may be an excellent embodiment of Judeo-Christian values, very succinctly.

The Disney ethos contains several maxims, including that good is always rewarded, evil is always punished. If you work hard and do your best, things will work out in the end. As Mark said, even though this is not always the case in real life, it is helpful for children to see these things modeled to them while they are growing up. Scientific research also backs up this need for optimism, proving in many cases that having a positive outlook on life, or being optimistic, leads to better outcomes in life.

Martin Seligman’s book Learned Optimism discusses this concept in detail, and it is likely that Mr. Seligman would agree that seeing examples of optimism, especially in the face of adversity, can help both children and adults to experience more positive outcomes in their lives.

This excellent book by a leading researcher in the field of positive psychology contends that individuals can learn to be optimistic, and that this can help them lead more productive and fulfilling lives. Learned optimism is the opposite of learned helplessness, where one thinks that they cannot change the circumstances of their lives after they have repeatedly experienced trauma or stressful events. According to Positive Psychology, “Learned optimism is very much a positive psychology concept; it’s the opposite of learned helplessness: a phenomenon whereby individuals believe they are incapable of changing their circumstances after repeatedly experiencing a stressful event (Abramson, Seligman, & Teasdale, 1978; Seligman & Garber, 1980; Maier & Seligman, 2016).”

Another concept from what Mark called the Disney ethos is that if you have faith in a higher power, that power will help you to overcome whatever adversity it is you are facing. While the Disney movies during the Eisner and Katzenberg years became more theologically based, while at the same time as being more diverse and inclusive, this was an understood part of Disney movies all the way back to the beginning. So, this Disney ethos of optimism that Mark discusses can be summed up that if you are good and kind, call on a higher power, and do your own very best to succeed against the villain, you will be rewarded.

One of the best, and easiest to see, examples of this ethos is in Snow White. As Mark says, Snow White herself is a pure innocent, and the queen / evil witch dichotomy is pure evil. It is unmistakable and obvious. Snow White is a good, pure, innocent girl, who always tries to be helpful to others. She is even able to melt the obnoxious, angry, nasty Grumpy’s heart, which was not an easy feat.

Another example of this ethos can be clearly seen in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, which used explicitly Christian symbolism. However, in the original novel, the author, Victor Hugo, did not much care for the church. In the original, the villain was himself a cleric, whereas in the movie version, the villain was a magistrate, and the cleric in the movie was seen as a benevolent and kind character. The way that the gypsies were persecuted in the movie is reflective of real life.

According to an entry on Quora in regard to what Mark mentioned about the gypsies and the Holocaust, referencing two books by Jan Yoors, a man who lived among the Rom people, who speak an ancient language called Romany: After the Jews, they were the most persecuted group in Europe at the time of the Holocaust, and they are still persecuted to this day wherever they find themselves in European countries and around the world. Yoors actually attempted to save some of the Rom people who wound up in concentration camps and were exterminated during the war. (For those interested in learning more about the Holocaust, Staten Islander News reviewed How Could This Happen by Paul Moses – an interview will be forthcoming in the next few months)

We also discussed what is known colloquially as 2-D animation, or traditional (hand-drawn) animation and the charm and realism that it has, especially when compared to 3-D, or CGI, animation. CGI animation is reminiscent of dolls interacting, and even though 2-D animation is drawn by hand and should be less real, it actually is more realistic and convincing that the 3-D animation that is so prevalent today.

One of the questions that Mark answered in the affirmative was whether Disney has been a force for good in our culture. He says that it has, and in a way, his book is meant to guide parents through the Disney canon. Considering the time frame of some of the movies, such as during segregation and racism, during Walt’s lifetime, the Gospel According to Disney is also meant as a sort of guidebook for parents to help them understand the movies, and to help them when there are themes that are questionable or difficult.

For example, the crows in Dumbo are seen as having racist overtones, and we did not discuss Song of the South, which is almost impossible to get as a movie (although someone is selling burned DVD copies on Amazon at the moment). While South is still part of our culture, particularly as it relates to the rides at Disney World, almost no one alive today has seen it. Disney made a decision many years ago, discussed in a book specifically about this movie, Who’s Afraid of Song Of the South, not to re-release this movie. It was decided to, in a sense, get rid of it. If it is never re-released, and many have requested it over the years, no one will ever see it, and it can be forgotten. That movie had some definite racist overtones, and in fact, James Baskett, who played the main character, was not able to be invited to the premier at the time due to it being held in Atlanta, a segregated city.

However, in the newer movies, themes of inclusivity and diversity, a reflection of our colorful world, are focused on. An example of this is The Princess and the Frog, where the heroine lives in New Orleans, and her dream is to open the restaurant she and her father always wanted. Her life was completely set up to make her want to kiss the frog she meets after she wishes on a star when her dreams seem completely out of reach (you have to watch it to know what I mean).

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Once again, as is common in Disney movies, the higher power, in this case a wishing star, reaches down and helps her along. As her father says, “…remember Tiana that that old star can only take you part of the way. You’ve gotta help it along with some hard work of your own and then, you can do anything you set your mind to. Just promise your daddy one thing. That you’ll never, ever lose sight of what’s really important.”

Later on, when Tiana is sorely tested, and offered everything she has dreamed of her whole life, if only she will sacrifice the one person she truly loves, she will remember these words of her father, and it gives her strength. The strength to fight for what is good and right, and to prove once again that good always triumphs over evil. And as has happened in other Disney movies, when she makes that choice, the choice to sacrifice what she really wants in order to do what is right, the sacrifice is dissolved, and in its place, all her dreams really come true in ways she could never have foreseen.

Another example of this same theme, where the main character must sacrifice everything she holds dear in order to do what is right, is Frozen 2. Once again, the main character is confronted with a choice: sacrifice her home, or do what is right. And the sacrifice is dissolved, and joy reigns in its place. While this is not always reflective of real life, it is often enough the case that training children with this expectation is likely to be helpful in the long run, and not harmful to them. Optimism, and an optimistic outlook, as mentioned above and discussed throughout that book, creates the expected reality in most cases. This is true for optimism and pessimism alike, which is why learned optimism is so important.

Something else that was discussed is how Disney tracks changes in culture. They do not initiate the changes in culture, but they follow them along. So as diversity and inclusion have accelerated in our culture, these themes have found expression in the Disney movies. When Disney wanted to represent something, such as the spirituality of the Native American tribes in Pocahontas, they would ask the faith leaders, or in this case, the members of the tribe. As in other movies, they had extensive interviews with the tribe members about their faith, and what it meant to them in their lives, and then they represented it on screen. It is likely that had they ended Pocahontas the way it ended in real life, there would have been much less backlash about it. Because Pocahontas may or may not have saved John Smith’s life, but she certainly did not have a happily ever after, and neither did her people. However, it would have been a most depressing and dark movie.

In the real life story, she was kidnapped by the colonists and held for ransom, the ransom being the guns her father had been sold by the colonists (https://www.amazon.com/Double-Life-Pocahontas-Jean-Fritz/dp/0698119355). When he refused to give them back (even though he was never trained in how to use them – definitely on purpose), she was taken to England. There, she did meet John Rolfe, but after she had a child with him, she perished from smallpox on a return trip to the Americas.

Her tragic end was emblematic of the suffering her people underwent, as about 75 percent of them succumbed to the new diseases brought by the English, smallpox and measles. Her son, Thomas Rolfe, has nearly 100,000 descendants who can claim membership in the Powhatan tribes in Virginia. You can learn more about the efforts to restore the Native Lakota language from our interview with the Language Learning Conservancy’s Wil Meya, and there are efforts to restore the Algonquin language as well. In Canada, the Heritage Language Project seeks to preserve these languages as well.

Another movie that faced some backlash was Aladdin. In the original, there were some lyrics that were considered offensive by Muslim and Arab people, and the religion was seen as being caricatured. However, Disney went back and made some changes, and the movie was well-received after that. The original lyrics to the Arabian nights song said, ““where they cut off your ear if they don’t like your face.” and were changed to “where it’s flat and immense and the heat is intense.” Having seen the movie in theaters, this was what I originally heard, and did notice the change when the soundtrack was purchased. At the time, I had not realized it was due to controversy.

Something else that Mark mentioned as being crucial to their success was their music. The music in the movies is incredible, and is meticulously designed to be emotionally uplifting. In this era of streaming music and Kids Pop stations, Disney movies become ingrained in our culture in part through the songs. Without such attention to the music, they would have been like any other movie studio, not nearly as special. The soundtracks have nearly always been nominated for, and in some cases won, Academy Awards, and they have won more awards with their music than with the movies themselves by far. Fourteen songs have won Oscars for Best Original Song. Only one Disney movie was nominated for Best Feature Film, which was Beauty and the Beast – and it did not win. In 2002, the new category, Best Animated Feature Film, was created, and Disney films began to win Academy Awards for their films after that, starting with Spirited Away in 2003.

On a side note, the newer Disney movies under Eisner, to the present, also have greater character development and exploration. This is particularly true of some of the live action movies, including Cinderella and Aladdin.  The characters in these two movies can be considered to be fully developed, with glimpses of their past experiences and the effects on their current personalities.

The older movies were shorter by necessity, and in some cases the characters are less fully developed. For example, Prince Philip in Sleeping Beauty: we get to know him only in the vaguest sense. We know little of his past experiences, and only meet him in relation to the hero, Princess Aurora, who is also very lightly developed. Contrast that with Kristoff in Frozen and Frozen 2, where we get a deep feel for who he is, why he is in love with Anna, and how critical he was to the whole story.  The primary characters are always more developed than the hero, but even in Rapunzel we really get to know Flynn Rider (Eugene Fitzpatrick) in a much deeper way than, say, Prince Charming in Cinderella, whom we don’t get to know at all.  

Overall, Mark Pinsky’s book and interview will encourage parents and children of all ages to see Disney in a positive light. They are helping to shape the next generation, but their movies are not just for kids. As stated in the book review, Walt himself made these movies for everyone, not just for children.

Watch the complete interview to learn more.